Dr. Laura Sommer

We all get nudged every day, for example when we click the pre-selected "Yes, I accept" checkbox on a contract. Or when we reach for the veggie bowl instead of the currywurst in the canteen because it's the cheapest dish on the daily menu.

In all these cases, nudging allows us to act smarter without even thinking about it. And that's the trick: Nudging takes advantage of our convenience. It is therefore a powerful tool for brands if they want to promote more sustainable solutions.

How exactly does this superpower work? What psychological principles can marketers rely on? In this episode, we chat with environmental psychologist Dr. Laura Sommer, who advises marketers and companies such as ReCup and Vytal on the subject of nudges. You can find out what all this has to do with loss aversion, default settings and heuristics from the experienced nudging expert in this fact-packed, pragmatic episode of Sustainable Brand Stories. And you might even discover a bit about yourself along the way. Want to bet?

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Laura: Marketing initially played the role of significantly deepening and expanding human needs artificially in order to sell more. This means that the outcome of the ecological crises we are currently facing can also be attributed to marketing. The good news is that marketing can now contribute to solutions, especially when it applies the psychological principles that led to its success and to the way we function as we do.

Harald: When it comes to more sustainable actions and practices, there’s often talk of rules or bans. And sometimes these are necessary. For example, who knows how much gasoline cars would still be consuming if there were no legal emission standards? But there’s also a more elegant tool than paragraphs to guide people towards desired behavior. It’s called Nudging, a concept from behavioral economics that literally means "to nudge." Never heard of Nudging? Each of us is nudged every day, like when we click the pre-selected "I accept" checkbox on a contract or choose the Veggie Bowl over Currywurst in the cafeteria simply because it’s the cheapest dish on the menu. In all these cases, Nudging helps us act smarter without much thought. And that’s the trick. Nudging leverages our convenience, making it a powerful tool for brands wanting to advance more sustainable solutions or sell products. But how does this superpower work exactly? What psychological principles can marketing use? In this episode of Sustainable Brand Stories, we’ll be nudging environmental psychologist Dr. Laura Sommer, who advises companies like RECup and Vytal on their Nudging strategies. Find out what this has to do with loss aversion, default settings, and heuristics in this fact-rich, pragmatic episode of Sustainable Brand Stories. And you’ll likely discover more about yourself along the way.

Tatjana: Welcome to Sustainable Brand Stories, the podcast for sustainably successful brands and communication, presented by Strichpunkt Design and part of the Brand 1 Podcast Network.

Harald: Laura, we’ve just had a year with powerful waves of agitation due to a supposed mandatory heat pump regulation sweeping through the country. Recently, we also saw tractor convoys of angry farmers rolling through the cities, protesting against what they perceived as excessive green regulations. Generally, Germans seem weary of constant calls for change: less driving, less flying, less meat consumption, less heating—the list of potentially useful measures goes on endlessly and wears us out. As an environmental psychologist, can you understand what happens to our psyche when we are constantly admonished, or at least feel like we are?

Laura: Yes, from a psychological perspective, a lot happens in people's minds. One mechanism, and this is just one of many, that causes people to react the way they do is loss aversion. Loss aversion is a bias, something that happens in our minds during information processing. It leads us to remember negative events from the past more strongly and to feel that the loss of things weighs much heavier than positive experiences.

Harald: So the glass is tendentially half empty rather than half full?

Laura: Yes, exactly. Because we know that’s how it will be, we want to avoid the loss even before it happens. We always try to avoid experiencing loss rather than striving for what could be positive. On the other hand, there is also reactance. This is like when you tell a child to put on a coat because it’s cold and raining outside, and the child thinks, "No, I don’t want to, why should I?" The more you insist, the more stubborn the child becomes. As adults, we also react this way when we feel that someone like Habeck is telling us we should buy a heat pump. We tend to resist even more, and that’s reactance.

Harald: So this makes it difficult for someone—whether it’s legislators, environmental groups, etc.—to push through concepts and make them appealing, because these two mechanisms you described, loss aversion and reactance, work against them. Loss aversion means we want to avoid giving up something or the pain associated with it, and reactance means we become rebellious. Today we’re discussing a concept called Nudging that avoids these factors, and this concept, Nudging, means "to nudge" and was popularized by the 2008 book by economist Richard Thaler and legal scholar Cass Sunstein. Laura, can you explain a bit about what Nudging is and why it’s so interesting?

Laura: Nudging is a concept from behavioral economics. Behavioral economics is a research discipline that initially studied things like self-control—why do we do things that we know are bad for us, both before and after? Things like accumulating debt, gaining weight, eating too much, smoking. These are all things we know are unhealthy and that we shouldn’t do, but we still do them, which has to do with self-control. Behavioral scientists wanted to understand how people tick. They developed Nudging to address these issues. It’s important to emphasize that when the book "Nudge" was published, it caused a lot of waves because people thought they understood how humans work and could manipulate them. However, we don’t want to manipulate people, especially not in the context of sustainability. It should always be ethical, just giving people a nudge to overcome their inner resistance and actually do something beneficial for themselves and for everyone.

Harald: There are indeed thousands of examples every day. We take the car to work instead of the bike, even though we know it’s healthier and better for the environment. We fly on vacation, and you mentioned smoking and eating sugar, etc. We actually know better. This shows that the old assumption—if people only knew, if we just informed them, then they would act accordingly—is not always true. Now Nudging comes along and says, "We’ve recognized the problem and will try a different approach." Can you give an example of how Nudging works, how this nudge actually functions?

Laura: People make many of their daily decisions unconsciously. We tend to choose what we already know and what requires the least mental effort. Nudging is actually about designing the environment in such a way that people can make the desired decisions without much thought. For example, this can be done by changing the environment, the way choices are presented, creating incentives, or positioning. If we think about recycling or trash, depending on how many bins are available in a street or city, people will actually sort their trash more effectively. So, it’s largely about how options and capabilities are utilized and how they are set up.

Harald: So, if the glass recycling bin is right in front of my house and everyone is throwing their glass there, I’d be foolish not to do it as well. But if I’m the only one who has to walk 3 kilometers to the glass container, I might be the eco-friendly one who looks a bit foolish. Is this what you mean by designing the architecture to make decisions easier for us?

Laura: Yes and no. You’ve just introduced a third aspect, the social aspect. First, going back to architecture, the more opportunities we have in our environment to exhibit a behavior, the more likely we are to do it. But on the other hand, there are also abilities involved, meaning we need to be capable of performing the behavior. For example, if I am a small child and can’t reach the bin to throw something away, or if the shape doesn’t fit—say, if I have a square glass and the opening is round—I can’t throw it in. This relates to capability. Then there are social aspects; we generally tend to do what others do. We are herd animals, so we look at what our neighbors are doing, what our boss wants, what our employees, friends, and colleagues are doing, and we align ourselves accordingly.

Harald: That’s a great example. Recently, we had the founder of Enpal, the solar unicorn, as a guest on the podcast, and he told us exactly what you’ve just mentioned. A major reason people install solar panels on their roofs is whether their neighbors already have them. If I’m the first on the street to get one, I might be looked at strangely, but if I’m the last one without it, I’ll be looked at oddly again. So, I immediately contact Enpal and order a solar panel system. This social desirability, as you’ve called it, really comes into play. We are herd animals, as you said.

Laura: Exactly, or social proof, as it’s called in English. If others are doing it, then it must be right. Or if I arrive in a city I don’t know and want to get out of the train station, I just follow the others because they know where they’re going.

Harald: There are many examples of successful nudging in the context of sustainability, even if many people, including myself, aren’t aware that it’s nudging. One example I read, which I find very interesting, is when an appliance manufacturer like Miele or Bosch delivers dishwashers or washing machines with the energy-saving program set as the default. They can expect that a large portion of these machines will continue to run on the energy-saving mode for years, simply because many customers never touch the program button. I found this very logical. And this actually ties into doing what’s obvious. Can we say that nudging caters to our convenience? It helps us do the right thing by making the right choice—whatever that might be—easier?

Laura: Yes, you can say that, or even more. Nudging actually aligns with human nature and, in conjunction with sustainability, helps us make decisions that align with our values. In all surveys over the last 20 years, people repeatedly say that the environment is important to them, that they fear climate change, and that they intend to behave accordingly. But unfortunately, they often don’t. They still eat meat and fly to Mallorca, and this is partly due to how we process information and how the system around us is set up, and which behaviors are encouraged. This is what we call choice architecture in behavioral science. It should be designed so that sustainable behaviors are as easy, attractive, socially accepted, and timely as possible.

Harald: You mentioned a great acronym in the pre-interview, a formula that you can use well. Can you share it with us?

Laura: Yes, it’s the EAST Framework. EAST stands for Easy, Attractive, Social, and Timely. Timely doesn’t mean it should require little time; that’s included in Easy and Attractive. Rather, Timely means catching people at moments when they are already open to change. For instance, if I change jobs, move, get married, or have children, many things in my life are already changing, making it easier to introduce new habits. So, if as a city or employer, I provide new employees with a public transport ticket for 2 or 3 months, they can establish new habits with this ticket instead of starting by driving to work.

Harald: Great. The EAST Framework is fantastic. What role does marketing play in this, and how can marketers utilize all of this?

Laura: Marketing has primarily played the role of significantly deepening and expanding human needs artificially in order to sell more. This means that the results of the ecological crises we are facing are partly attributable to marketing. The good news is that marketing can now also contribute to solutions, especially when it applies the psychological principles that led to its success and to our current level of consumption.

Tatjana: Quick and dirty, time for a quick round of questions. What was the point in your life when you became aware of the importance of sustainability?

Laura: That was when I was studying psychology. I used to go bouldering in the Franconian Switzerland with friends, and in nature, I started to question why we know that climate change is man-made but still don’t act accordingly. I decided to find out and have been addressing this question ever since.

Tatjana: Why do you think sustainability and sustainable brand management will be crucial for competition in the coming years?

Laura: Simply because it’s not just about competition but about our survival as a species. You can’t make a profit on a damaged planet.

Tatjana: The argument that would convince even the most indifferent nerd to act more sustainably?

Laura: Generally, when I encounter people who are ignorant or opposed, I use my curiosity and ask them to explain how they see the world. I listen and ask where I don’t understand connections. Ignorant people usually don’t want to hear what others have to say, and the best way to address this is to show them connections that don’t make sense.

Tatjana: Your definition of sustainability in one sentence.

Laura: Sustainability is often about behaving in accordance with one’s values.

Tatjana: Do you have a better alternative to the overused term “sustainability”?

Laura: I would say “future viability.”

Tatjana: Now, honestly, what is your most unsustainable product or habit? Where do you cheat?

Laura: I live an international life. I completed my PhD in Norway, live with my family in Greece, and have many of my clients in Germany. This means I unfortunately fly more than I would like. However, I always try to take direct flights and combine my business trips with visits to friends and family.

Tatjana: If you were Chancellor tomorrow, what law related to sustainability would you implement immediately?

Laura: I would make the sustainable version the standard wherever possible and make it a law.

Harald: It’s true that nudging isn’t new to marketing. For example, placing products in supermarkets where we want to sell them most, in the middle of the shelf instead of at the top or bottom where we’d have to stretch or bend, is already a form of nudging. It’s designed to boost consumption. But you mentioned that marketing can also become a force for good, and you shared a thought in the pre-interview that opened my eyes. You said that behavioral science is crucial for sustainability because our environmental and climate problems are primarily a result of our behavior, both individually and societally. Initially, this didn’t seem groundbreaking to me, like if a journalist says journalism is important. But after some thought, it makes sense. We buy too many climate-damaging products, we often choose cars over trains, and we elect governments that set too few incentives and rules for sustainable behavior. So, the mess out there is largely a consequence of our behavior. My question is, what does this mean for companies? What can companies learn from nudging and the concept of nudging?

Laura: What it means for companies is that if I want to take responsibility and encourage my employees and customers to behave in line with their values, I need to create a decision environment where this is possible. I can appeal to my employees as much as I want, telling them that sustainability is important, that we want to use less plastic, and that we want to save CO2. But this doesn’t really help people change their behavior. The positive side is that if I approach it from a behavioral science perspective and use nudging in a campaign, I can actually reduce Scope 3 emissions, which are usually very hard to measure and influence because they don’t fall directly into the business operations but are indirect, involving the upstream and downstream value chain.

Harald: It might be worth mentioning briefly that Scope 3 refers to the usage phase of the products I produce, business travel, etc. Scope 3 means things that aren’t immediately within my control as a company but occur before or after my direct influence, correct?

Laura: Exactly. Or also waste management and similar aspects. To influence this, a behavior-based campaign can be a great way to encourage employees and customers to act more sustainably.

Harald: I’ve been to quite a few companies, and I can hardly remember one without posters in the cafeteria or hallways urging people to separate waste, save energy, turn off lights, or behave more sustainably in other ways. I believe these often have very little impact. In the pre-interview, you mentioned an important aspect that we as an agency also highlight: something needs to be modeled from the top. It sounds almost trivial, but why is it so crucial from a behavioral science perspective that the CEO or top management models the behavior that employees are supposed to follow?

Laura: It’s so important because, as I mentioned before, people are social beings. We always look up or around us. So, if the boss says or we put up posters in the company saying “Recycle more” or “Be more vegetarian,” people might think, “Okay, great, and then what?” The delicious non-vegetarian food being served still tastes better to me. But if I see my boss standing in line next to me and actually choosing vegetarian food, I’m more likely to choose vegetarian food too. If my boss says, “Come to work by bike because we want to save CO2,” but then arrives in a big car, I won’t be inclined to ride my bike either, because it’s not modeled and it’s not authentic.

Harald: We’ve looked a bit at internal company practices. If we look outward, what can marketing and brands achieve with nudging in terms of customers?

Laura: What’s important is to always center the company’s purpose and materiality, as these help in selecting key behaviors. When approaching it from a behavioral science perspective, we need to consider what behaviors customers exhibit in relation to my product and which behaviors I want to change. What’s essential is identifying where I have the greatest leverage to effect sustainable behavior change and what aligns with our company and employees. What is our purpose, and how can we derive a relevant and meaningful key behavior from it?

Harald: Can you give a concrete example, perhaps for a specific company or industry and a key behavior? What should I imagine?

Laura: There’s a great example from Finish, a company that makes dishwashing detergents. They decided they wanted to conserve water resources. With their dishwashers, you can actually save 90% of the water used in hand washing. That’s a great thing. However, if you look at the behavior, many people pre-rinse their dishes, which means they use water to clean the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher. This effectively reduces the water savings by 50%. They thought, “What can we do about this?” The anchoring effect is a psychological issue where people place more value on pre-rinsing than is necessary. The dishwasher can clean everything even without pre-rinsing. They devised a campaign to overcome this anchoring effect, called the “24-Hour Challenge.” It was a gamification approach where they said, “Cook a lasagna at home, let it sit for 24 hours, and if it doesn’t come clean in the dishwasher, we’ll pay for your lasagna.” This allowed people to experience firsthand that pre-rinsing wasn’t necessary. It was a much more impactful experience than simply an informational campaign about water savings.

Harald: I don’t know about you, but when I listen to Dr. Laura Sommer, I feel uncomfortably exposed. For example, when she describes how we tend to choose the easiest, most convenient route and make most decisions unconsciously, even though we consider ourselves rational decision-makers, and most embarrassingly, how we do many things simply because people around us do them too. All this describes me—I’m convenient, driven by gut feeling, and opportunistic. But I’ve also learned that this human nature presents a real opportunity for brands and marketers. They can use our realistic self-perception to encourage customers and employees to engage in more meaningful behavior. There are many examples of this principle’s effectiveness. We’ve learned to fasten seat belts in cars, not smoke in trains or public spaces, and use energy-saving modes on dishwashers and washing machines simply because it’s set as the default and changing it requires effort. It’s that simple. And sustainable brands and products can benefit from this knowledge, even if it may sound disheartening at first.

Harald: I wish I had known all this during my student days. I remember piles of crusty dishes stacking up in our shared flat. But we didn’t have a dishwasher. It’s a great example. Can we dive a bit deeper, Laura, into the toolkit of nudging—the tricks and methods that generally exist? Most are very logical. One we already mentioned is product placement in supermarkets. If the retailer places products they want to sell in the middle of the shelf, it makes it easier for me to grab them rather than reaching up or bending down. So, that’s about product positioning. But you also advise reusable cup providers like RECup and Vytal on how to get people to choose reusable cups over single-use ones. This is also logical and understandable, but we don’t do it. What’s the trick or technique that could be applied?

Laura: There are several great techniques that can be applied. For instance, sticking with positioning, often disposable cups are positioned next to coffee machines. But if, as a restaurant owner, I place reusable cups right next to the machine, it becomes much easier for the baristas to grab them directly. It also signals to customers at the counter that reusable cups are available, so they can ask for one without feeling like an inconvenient customer who has to go to the back to get one. So, positioning is also crucial, just like in supermarkets. Then there’s the change in selection. Just offering reusable cups instead of disposable ones makes sustainable behavior more salient, meaning it draws attention. Or if I change the food selection in the cafeteria—let’s say I usually have two meat dishes and one vegetarian dish, and I flip this to two vegetarian dishes and one meat dish—without specifically forcing anyone to choose vegetarian, I still increase the likelihood that people will choose the vegetarian option. This could be because the vegetarian options might be more appealing or tastier at that moment, without making anyone feel restricted. Then there’s the adjustment of defaults. For example, with reusable cups, if the default is to offer a reusable cup unless the customer specifically asks for a disposable one, people are more likely to choose the default reusable option.

Harald: Sorry, when you say “default,” you mean the standard setting, correct?

Laura: Yes, standard setting. This is similar to what you mentioned before how washing machines are set to 30 degrees instead of 40 degrees by default, or if baristas ask at the register whether you want a regular cup or a disposable cup. People are more likely to choose what is set as the default. Yes exactly. The standard setting or default is what people tend to stick with unless prompted otherwise. These are some simple nudging techniques that can be applied.

Harald: You’re touching on a very interesting aspect: that people seem to constantly ask themselves what is normal, what are others doing, and how should they behave. Am I the odd one out for asking for a reusable cup, or am I the odd one for asking for a disposable cup while everyone else is using reusable ones? It’s a bit of an unflattering realization that we are indeed quite herd-like, almost as if we have no will of our own, isn’t it?

Laura: I would never say that we don’t have our own will, but our social environment significantly influences how we live. We’re very conscious of how we appear and what others are doing. It’s completely normal and has been crucial for our survival and well-being throughout history.

Harald: Why is it important for our lives? Is it because we might get left behind if we don’t stick with the tribe while hunting mammoths, or why is it important to behave like those around us?

Laura: Well, without the support of others—like those who helped us hunt the mammoth—we wouldn’t have survived. In the end, we need other people to survive and thrive, and that’s still ingrained in us.

Harald: We are social creatures, and that’s why we’re so successful—we can coordinate to hunt together. This is still true today, and I find this thought of yours very interesting. I can also provide personal examples. Recently, at a café, there were no RECup or Vytal cups next to the coffee machine. I asked for one, and the staff tried to help me, but they had to get the cups from the back and didn’t know how to charge them properly. Behind me, other customers were visibly annoyed. So that was the opposite of positive nudging. But you mentioned in the pre-interview an example of how to turn this around. For instance, if a coffee shop displays a sign saying, “9 out of 10 customers choose reusable cups here,” it signals that reusable is the norm and popular. This encourages others to follow suit and adopt the behavior as well. Correct?

Laura: Yes, that’s correct. It signals the social norm, making it clear that it’s okay and that others are doing it too.

Harald: After hearing so much about the potential of nudging, where do its limitations lie? What doesn’t work?

Laura: Nudging shouldn’t be seen as a silver bullet or a solution to all our problems. While it is a cost-effective way to push people in certain directions, it must be applied with attention to the context and real barriers to sustainable behavior. You need to analyze these barriers before implementing any intervention and see if it sticks. There is a lot of research in behavioral science and environmental psychology, so you can look at what has already worked and derive nudges from that. It’s also crucial to test and evaluate if the nudges work in the specific context; otherwise, you won’t know if they have been effective. These are some of the steps we need to follow to ensure that nudging works and that we make progress.

Harald: What should marketers consider if they want to experiment with nudging for their brand?

Laura: It’s important to first analyze what actually stands in the way of the key behavior. Often, people might not know what sustainable options are available, but there could be underlying issues. Is it loss aversion, status quo bias, or other psychological barriers? Define the key behavior clearly and identify the psychological barriers that are truly in the way. From there, you can develop effective interventions that are worth testing. So, it’s worth investing effort in the initial analysis to ensure that you end up with something effective and efficient.

Harald: Last, very concrete question: Could we at Sustainable Brand Stories use nudging to get more people to listen to our podcast? Where would you, as an environmental psychologist, suggest we start?

Laura: Certainly, you can use nudging for this. For example, you can make the podcast as accessible as possible. You’ve already done that by being available on various platforms. Another approach could be to make the podcast more attractive to your target audience. You could reference social proof, such as testimonials from listeners who share what they find valuable about the podcast. Or encourage listeners to rate your podcast, which could help it rank higher and become more accessible among the many other podcasts available.

Harald: I couldn’t have expressed that better myself. So, folks, you’ve heard it—please rate us if you haven’t already, with 1 to 5 stars, everything helps. And thank you so much, Laura, for the fascinating conversation.

Laura: You’re welcome, Harald.

Tatjana: That’s all for today from Sustainable Brand Stories. Thank you for listening, and if you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe and leave a review. We look forward to it. See you soon, dear listeners, and see you soon, Harald.